8mm (1999)

[raj]: All right, eight millimeters.

[Shishir]: I don't

[raj]: Is that

[Shishir]: think

[raj]: how you

[Shishir]: so.

[raj]: would say it? Like full name? Not,

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: you wouldn't

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: say

[Shishir]: Right.

[raj]: it eight mm? Probably not.

[raj]: So this movie came out in 1999. And so
I actually remember watching this movie on

[raj]: rental. And I'm not

[Shishir]: So.

[raj]: sure why I missed it in the theaters.
I, in the 90s, I watched just about every movie

[raj]: that came out. Like actually every major
movie that came out. And then if it was any

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: like I also watched those and But somehow
I missed this in the theater. So I saw this

[raj]: on rental and I love this movie and

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: I still remember this movie Even though
I've only seen it once when it came out and

[raj]: when we decided to do it for the pod
I was actually really excited And back when

[raj]: I was younger and I still do so now but
when I was younger I used to like I used to

[raj]: love dark and dark and dark and dark
and dark and dark and dark and dark and dark

[raj]: and dark and dark and dark and dark and
dark and dark and dark and dark and dark and

[raj]: dark and dark and dark and dark and dark
and dark and dark and dark and dark and dark

[raj]: and dark and dark and dark and dark and
dark and dark and dark and dark and dark and

[raj]: dark and dark and dark and dark and dark
and dark and dark and dark and dark and dark

[raj]: and dark and dark and dark and dark and
dark and dark and dark and dark and dark and

[raj]: dark and dark and dark and dark and dark
and dark and dark and dark and movies and

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: I love movies about criminals and this

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: movie is as dark as you can get for being
like a studio

[Shishir]: No.

[raj]: movie with like a big star like Nicholas

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: and it kind of reminds me of like another
movie that I liked a lot when it came out to

[raj]: you remember ransom Ron Howard's ransom
with Mel Gibson

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: and Renee

[Shishir]: not

[raj]: Rousseau

[Shishir]: the absolute, yes, yes.

[raj]: another studio movie and I don't think
they actually like any violence or torture,

[raj]: but it was lurking. And

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: another kind of dark movie, and I like
that movie. So it's not exactly a movie that

[raj]: cheers you up or you bring your family
to, but I just love these

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: movies.

[raj]: And so that's why I was excited when
you brought it up. So is there

[Shishir]: Thank

[raj]: a reason

[Shishir]: you.

[raj]: why you, because I remember you brought
this up many months ago, and then we just met

[raj]: at a party just recently, this movie.

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah. You know, it's, it's,
it's, yeah, it was one of those things where

[Shishir]: I remember this was, um, yeah, 1999.
And the reason I, the reason I didn't see it

[Shishir]: in theater myself was I think, um,
I was like, I think I was just starting out

[Shishir]: college. And, uh, you know, it's,
it's, uh, I don't think it got that much, um,

[Shishir]: much promotion of marketing, uh,
in terms of advertisements on

[Shishir]: pretty large star in terms of Nicholas

[raj]: Just to have you know, it came out in

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: I actually think February, it's kind
of a dead time for movies. ["The Star-Spangled

[raj]: Banner"]

[Shishir]: Gotcha. Yeah, I think it's not like
one of those,

[raj]: You got the

[Shishir]: yeah

[raj]: Super Bowl coming out.

[Shishir]: right

[raj]: Yeah. You know, like all, a lot of the
award movies or the big movies came out on

[raj]: Christmas or Thanksgiving.

[Shishir]: Correct. That's good.

[raj]: And

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: then the action movies come out in the
summer. I think

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: like

[raj]: a movie like this, this thriller,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: but it did do so though, bad. Like I
don't want to take the mic away from you. But

[raj]: it made close to a hundred million if
you include it's international. But I think

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: You know, back then this was before streaming,
and I'm almost positive.

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: Like, dark movies like this did well on rentals.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes, definitely. That's the
other thing. I mean, back then, I think we,

[raj]: Rentals

[Shishir]: I think

[raj]: were

[Shishir]: there

[raj]: huge.

[Shishir]: was still exactly you had blockbuster.
I think it was still pretty popular. I mean,

[Shishir]: like it was pretty much at the, at
sing at the peak around that time

[raj]: And not only that, I wouldn't discount movies bought at Target

[Shishir]: where

[raj]: and Best Buy, so also buy movies. So, yeah, I think that's it.
I'm gonna go ahead and get some more of these.

[Shishir]: Yes, exactly. You could just purchase
it directly. You know, it's one of those things.

[Shishir]: So like, I guess the reason why I
brought it up to you, and I saw you last time

[Shishir]: was like, you know, a lot of, there's
been a lot of like publicity coming out on

[Shishir]: Netflix and some other streaming
channels where they talk about these docu,

[Shishir]: docu series on like some, I think
there's like a Jeffrey Dahmer one that came

[Shishir]: out. And I got a lot of publicity
a lot of notoriety because people are complaining

[Shishir]: about like how is glorifying some
of these really terrible people and awful events

[Shishir]: that happen. And I thought back to
when topics like this were talked about in

[Shishir]: terms of movies, and I remember 8mm,
it's weird because I also saw it not in theater,

[Shishir]: I saw it on rental. first time I
saw it I was like pretty blown away because

[Shishir]: the topic the subject matter so it's
it's a very dark tone like tonally it's dark

[Shishir]: but the way that is presented in
this movie is not like hopeless or bleak like

[Shishir]: it is an awful horrible thing but
but the way they go about kind of shedding

[Shishir]: light on that subject and then

[raj]: It's also

[Shishir]: how

[raj]: a murder mystery. So,

[Shishir]: exactly

[raj]: you know,

[Shishir]: yeah

[raj]: you want to actually find out.

[Shishir]: Exactly. You want to find out? And
at some level, you know, there's some kind

[Shishir]: of justice, right? That's brought

[raj]: Yes,

[Shishir]: to the...

[raj]: yes, I'm gonna, when we get a little
bit further on the pot, I do wanna talk about

[raj]: the justice part. Ha ha ha ha. I'm gonna
go ahead and get the back to the

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah. But it's, so I was just
thinking about it. I was thinking about all

[Shishir]: the stuff that's come out, you know,
talked about in current times for pretty, pretty

[Shishir]: awful things that have been going
on in society. And I just feel, and then also

[Shishir]: not even just like documentaries,
but this is one thing I've noticed the trend

[Shishir]: like a lot of shows, for example,
Ozark on Netflix. It's a show about money laundering,

[Shishir]: but it's a very dark, really great
dark show. There's you like you know when I

[Shishir]: first watched that show this is a
little bit off track but kind of relates to

[Shishir]: why I like eight millimeters so much.
But Ozark is to me like a prime example of

[Shishir]: like I guess what the audience really
craze but I feel like it's not a good thing

[Shishir]: to always cater to that because it's

[Shishir]: light at the end of the two. Right?

[raj]: are the good guys, really now good guys

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: And just because they don't show them
maybe doing the murders, but they

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: okayed it, you know? And

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: so like they keep kind of closing that
gap. I feel like the showrunners and the writers

[raj]: kind

[Shishir]: So,

[raj]: of do that on purpose.

[Shishir]: they do it on purpose

[raj]: And

[Shishir]: too.

[raj]: don't give away the ending of Ozark.
I haven't seen the second half yet, but

[Shishir]: Okay, gotcha. Okay,

[raj]: you

[Shishir]: okay.

[raj]: know, it is, you know, like let's talk
about like like Breaking Bad, which is probably

[raj]: a show.

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah,

[raj]: Have you seen? You

[Shishir]: I've

[raj]: know,

[Shishir]: seen breaking

[raj]: and

[Shishir]: back.

[raj]: it's one of those things where... If
you're the show runner, if you have a conscious,

[raj]: and when I was younger,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: I did not have a

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: conscious. I wanted the villain or the
pseudo villain to get away with it. But I feel

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: like you gotta end the show with some
justice. You can't let them

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: get away with it. But I know what you
mean though. First three or four seasons. Walter

[Shishir]: So

[raj]: White

[Shishir]: you

[raj]: is like Tom Cruise, you know? I mean,

[Shishir]: It's

[raj]: he's like the hero. Ha ha ha ha ha.

[Shishir]: right. Right. Right. Well, so what
I looked about that character breaking that

[Shishir]: is they actually show a reason why
he's doing what he's doing. And then they show

[Shishir]: that, you know, this initial kind
of development is that he wants to do it for

[Shishir]: a certain limit, like certain time
limits, certain amount. And that's just to

[Shishir]: like help his family out, right?
But then it just like goes way beyond that.

[Shishir]: And I mean, like, it's, it's, it
was kind of fun. first, but then I was like,

[Shishir]: okay, I'm like, it's kind of getting
a little bit, in my mind, I was like, he's,

[Shishir]: he's like becoming like, you know,
invincible. And he's just doing whatever he

[Shishir]: wants to do. And so he slowly transitioned
from the hero or anti hero to villain. Basically,

[Shishir]: I mean, like, it just, you know,
as an, kind of an experimental way, I liked

[Shishir]: that they did that, also in that
particular series. But, but I think what happened

[Shishir]: is, People saw that, oh, that was
such a popular, like such a huge groundbreaking

[Shishir]: series. And then like kind of further
adding on to like these other prime type of

[Shishir]: shows like The Sopranos and The Wires

[raj]: I'm so

[Shishir]: and stuff like

[raj]: glad

[Shishir]: that.

[raj]: you brought the Sopranos. This is not
something that I came up with. I heard this

[raj]: from someone else, and

[Shishir]: Thank

[raj]: I

[Shishir]: you.

[raj]: forget who said this, but he even went
back as far as the godfather, kind

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: of like romanticizing criminals,

[Shishir]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

[raj]: and the dark underworld. And

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah.

[raj]: just kind of segwaying back to this movie,
This goes back to the dark underworld, but

[raj]: it shows

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: the darkness of like how sick it is.
And these

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: villains, you couldn't even romanticize
these villains even if you wanted to.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes, exactly. And the thing
is, the amount that they show for an R-rated

[Shishir]: movie was just enough that you got
the understanding of it. You got the full understanding

[Shishir]: of how bad that situation is, like
how bad that whole area is, that part of the

[Shishir]: world,

[raj]: And

[Shishir]: CD part

[raj]: I

[Shishir]: of the

[raj]: also

[Shishir]: world.

[raj]: don't think we should underestimate that
in 1999, this type of movie was a lot. I feel

[raj]: like,

[Shishir]: Thanks.

[raj]: you know, you were talking about Netflix,
I feel like in some of these docuseries and

[raj]: just these other movies that have been
on and TV

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: shows that, I feel like the audience
has seen this darkness, or been more exposed

[raj]: to it more,

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah,

[raj]: back then,

[Shishir]: exactly.

[raj]: back through movies and TV, back then,
then 1999.

[Shishir]: Yeah, exactly. You know, one series
that I thought did a good job also hinting

[Shishir]: at and like, I think probably took
hints or probably took clues or like, you know,

[Shishir]: tips from from movie like eight millimeter
was true detective season one. And because

[Shishir]: they had like a lot of dark sinister
type of tones of things going on, but they

[Shishir]: never really showed it. They implied
it. And then you you knew. Okay, there's like

[Shishir]: a a pretty awful underground type
of thing, a society that does those things

[Shishir]: that, you know, you get the full
picture of it, right?

[raj]: Где?

[Shishir]: But this is like eight millimeter,
I, you know, this is also before the internet

[Shishir]: really.

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: So like the amount that you could
really research until like this at the time

[Shishir]: was was very hard for just an average
consumer. So when I when I first saw

[Shishir]: I first I was like, no, this can't
be real. This must be like, like there must

[Shishir]: be a tiny thread that's true. And
then, you know, and then I try and remember

[Shishir]: when I first saw it, it's a very
cerebral movie, right? You start thinking about

[Shishir]: things, you're like, how prevalent
is this? Where does this kind of terrible,

[Shishir]: where does this terrible like type
of filming happen? Does it exist? And like,

[Shishir]: is it, how do they combat it? Like,
is there like people that fight this type of

[Shishir]: crime?

[raj]: And I don't know if you noticed in like
one scene, they even show who the consumers

[raj]: are. So when

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: Tom Wells, Nicholas Cage, and Max California,
Joaquin Phoenix's

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: character, goes to this like underground
market, I don't

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: know if you noticed, but if you notice
not the people that are selling, they look

[raj]: like scum bags. And that was not on purpose.

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: But

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: there was like

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: a guy like in a jacket that a normal
person would wear. that

[Shishir]: So, yeah.

[raj]: works at the office that you might be
working at, you know? And there he

[Shishir]: Yep,

[raj]: is,

[Shishir]: yep.

[raj]: just like browsing through the videos.

[Shishir]: Exactly, yeah. No, it's...

[raj]: And you know what? I should also mention,
and I think the audience knows, I know this

[raj]: is before the internet. I'm glad you
mentioned the internet because early days,

[raj]: and this is also before broadband, so
it was slow. It was slow.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes.

[raj]: And they didn't have a very good job
on how to, you know, play videos and stuff.

[raj]: So, you

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: know, you would go to shops.

[Shishir]: Yes, exactly.

[raj]: And these shops were legal. They existed.

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: like the market that they showed, that
was a different market.

[Shishir]: Yes, it's not something that like
any, I would think the average consumer would

[Shishir]: not really know about unless they
seek it out, right? It's a very small group

[Shishir]: of people, well not small, but it
is definitely like a very subselect group of

[Shishir]: people.

[raj]: And there's like this trust it feels

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: between

[Shishir]: yeah, yeah.

[raj]: the vendors and the customers, they're
not friends, but the cops are not being involved.

[raj]: And we're both

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: here for a reason. And we're both here
for a reason.

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: And we're both here for a reason. And
we're both

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: here for a reason. And we're both here
for a reason. And we're both

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: here for a reason. And we're

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: both here for a reason.

[Shishir]: Yeah. Yep. And it's a transactional
thing. They know that like it's like a, you

[Shishir]: know, the whole Silk Road with the

[raj]: Yes,

[Shishir]: dark underworld.

[raj]: yes.

[Shishir]: Yeah, kind of analogous to that back,
but in real life, like before, without digital

[Shishir]: transactions being made for legal

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: types of goods. So this is this is
exactly like, what people would do. And I just

[Shishir]: it triggered so many things in me
because I always like, you know, I always like

[Shishir]: stuff about private detectives. Like
always like my whole like,

[raj]: Me too.

[Shishir]: yeah, it's like my dream job is being
a private detective and being able to like

[Shishir]: help in some capacity with various
like on a case by case basis like helping find

[Shishir]: missing people and stuff like that's
always been like a dream thing. But it's very,

[Shishir]: very hard to do that. Like, you know,
so it's, that kind of work right or even like

[Shishir]: you know semi-fictional like type
of movies that have that you know protagonist

[Shishir]: as a character that does that because
it's just it's like very fascinating right

[Shishir]: so yeah this this one this one really
like hit a lot of buttons on that on that front

[Shishir]: but the way they presented this this
particular subject matter with the snuff films

[Shishir]: I I was shocked I didn't know that
right and then actually yeah this kind of related

[Shishir]: to another movie that came out many
years later called Hostel with Eli Roth right

[Shishir]: so he and they asked I remember there's
an interview but with him about about like

[Shishir]: you know where he's you know part
of that movie Hostel is where they're filming

[Shishir]: captured people and torturing them
for money essentially rich people are paying

[Shishir]: for that with this idea where, you
know, did you just kind of make it up out of

[Shishir]: thin air? And he said he actually
read some stories about this happening, this

[Shishir]: kind of incident happening in Thailand,
I think, and he said that they tried to research

[Shishir]: this and found that there's some
truth to a lot of these kinds of incidents

[Shishir]: where poor people off the streets
would get basically taken and

[Shishir]: And a lot of the times I think it
was like If I remember correctly, they would

[Shishir]: like pay the poor people like their
family a certain amount of money Something

[Shishir]: like that. It was very sickening
to hear and I was I mean it just like goes

[Shishir]: to show like But there's like this
dark part of humanity probably a minority,

[Shishir]: but Kind of rooting it out. It's
so important like you won't know about this

[Shishir]: stuff unless you kind of shed light
on it, right? So But yeah, 8mm to me was very

[Shishir]: novel in that sense, right? Presenting
that type of terrible crime and really trying

[Shishir]: to make it, I think, more noticeable
for the mass audience. Because, you know, the

[Shishir]: movie is like, a lot of movies nowadays
try to have a shock value, and 8mm didn't do

[Shishir]: that. They're really respectful in
some ways of like not making it so graphic

[Shishir]: per se, right?

[raj]: And when they would

[Shishir]: And

[raj]: show

[Shishir]: really...

[raj]: the eight millimeter film of

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: Mary Ann Matthews, the girl that Tom
Wells was hired or the define like is this

[raj]: true or not, they would just show clips
and then cut to Nicholas Cage or cut to something

[raj]: else. And then they would show clips
and then cut to Nicholas Cage

[Shishir]: Yeah, yep.

[raj]: So we would,

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: we know what was happening, but we won't
see the brutal parts of it.

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: And not enough in a coherent one scene.
And I think that was well done.

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah,

[raj]: Cause

[Shishir]: exactly. It

[raj]: I don't

[Shishir]: was

[raj]: think anybody

[Shishir]: great.

[raj]: wants to see it.

[Shishir]: I, yeah, it just, I mean, like, it's,
it's kind of, I think a kin to, or analogous

[Shishir]: to, what was it, like, yeah, a couple,
like, after 9-11, yeah, when Iraq got essentially

[Shishir]: taken down, people were posting like
YouTube videos of like Saddam Hussein's execution.

[Shishir]: I remember that got out, leaked out,
and, and then there's like, all these other

[Shishir]: like, like ridiculous, like, executions
that were being posted that people mentioning.

[Shishir]: I never saw any of that stuff.

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: But I remember some of my colleagues
that worked with sometimes they would see it

[Shishir]: and I was like, how can you like
see that? Like you can't like unsee it once

[Shishir]: you see it. It's pretty like traumatic
in a way, right?

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: And I yeah, so I'm glad that that
like you can make the same impact without showing,

[Shishir]: you know, such a graphic graph thing.
And I think that's, you know, that at least

[Shishir]: also treats the audience like they're
intelligent people versus like, oh, they have

[Shishir]: to be spelled out every single thing
and, you know, to understand which is not not

[Shishir]: the case. So I, yeah, I mean, I,
I, I love that movie. I love this movie a lot.

[Shishir]: I'm actually shocked that the IMDB
rating was like, I think six or something like

[Shishir]: that, six and a half out of 10.

[raj]: I think that some, just the subject matter
could probably just turn a lot of people off.

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah. I mean, it's totally
understandable, but it's I feel like maybe

[Shishir]: if you don't like the subject matter,
at least that my opinion shouldn't affect the

[Shishir]: rating. Like

[raj]: It's art,

[Shishir]: if it's

[raj]: if

[Shishir]: something

[raj]: it's

[Shishir]: that you

[raj]: art,

[Shishir]: Yeah, it's

[raj]: it's art.

[Shishir]: yeah.

[raj]: Yeah, I agree. I agree. I agree.

[Shishir]: And it's in a way I feel like it's
it was a movie that was contributed more good

[Shishir]: than like, um, than bad because I'm
like, my mind, if it's if it's something that

[Shishir]: raises awareness and then it makes
people want to, you know, be in the mode of

[Shishir]: like trying to fight this kind of
crime and like be more, more active in stopping

[Shishir]: stuff like this from happening, right?
I think that, that to me is like a great, great

[Shishir]: outcome

[raj]: I agree.

[Shishir]: for...

[raj]: And you know what? It did... I think
we kind of mentioned it, but it didn't glamorize

[raj]: the villains here. It really showed

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: them as sick as you can be.

[Shishir]: Yeah. Yes, that's the other thing.
So you have the villains who are like the actual

[Shishir]: like people like that criminal ring
that make these kind of movies. And then the

[Shishir]: other thing I like was that you have
kind of in between intermediary was played

[Shishir]: by walking Phoenix.

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: The California guy was the video
rental store store person. But he's, you know,

[Shishir]: for all intents and purposes, like
he's a little bit of a like a quirky character.

[Shishir]: And I mean he's just a phenomenal
actor, but he plays that role like I you actually

[Shishir]: kind of like him in a way Like he's
not a bad guy, right?

[raj]: No,

[Shishir]: Just

[raj]: I actually forgot that he was in the
movie and

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: it's a young Joaquin Phoenix. And even
though his character has got tattoos and he's

[raj]: got like spiked

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: hair and he's cashier at a porno store
or you know, at a video store, this was like

[raj]: a normal role for him.

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: And I kind of miss, I kind of miss, I'm
not sure if Joaquin Phoenix will ever, kind

[raj]: of reminds me of Johnny Depp it in Donnie
Barasco. Like I don't

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: know if Joaquin Phoenix will ever play
a straight man. But yeah, he kind of plays

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: like the straight man and the comic kind
of character. And he does a great job.

[Shishir]: Thanks for watching. Bye.

[raj]: And it was just weird seeing him roll
that he plays. But like he said though, he's

[raj]: pointing the likable guy. And Tom likes
him. Nicholas Cage character likes him.

[Shishir]: Yeah, they end up like it was it
was I didn't expect them to team up like when

[Shishir]: I was watching this for the first
time because you know you have this single

[Shishir]: detective Nicholas Cage's guy character
who's like pretty much like you know doing

[Shishir]: the doing the fact finding and searching
for clues to figure out what happened you know

[Shishir]: and and then then he starts like
when he's you know meeting with different people

[Shishir]: different characters and then meets
with the video store. employee with Max California.

[Shishir]: It was like, it just, it was such
a, such a cool dynamic, right? And, and, you

[Shishir]: know, you actually kind of, you start
rooting for, for him to like, you know, do

[Shishir]: well.

[raj]: or even just

[Shishir]: That

[raj]: like, you

[Shishir]: was,

[raj]: know, when

[Shishir]: that

[raj]: I'm watching

[Shishir]: was.

[raj]: the movie, it's just like, oh, you kind
of like, I want him to be in more scenes or

[raj]: in all the scenes when Tom's there, I
want Max there. And so, I'm going to be back.

[raj]: I'm going to be back. I'm going to be
back. I'm going to be back. I'm going to be

[raj]: back. I'm going to be back. I'm going
to be back. I'm going to be back. I'm going

[raj]: to be back. I'm going to be back. I'm
going to be back. I'm going to be back. I'm

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: going to be back. I'm going to be back.
I'm going to be back. I'm going to be back.

[Shishir]: Yep, yep, exactly. And yeah, it was
a, I considered, it was for me, I remember

[Shishir]: that role really well, like walking
Phoenix's role, because I liked him as an actor

[Shishir]: when I first saw him in that movie.
So I always kind of kept an eye out to see

[Shishir]: what other things he would show,
because you never know, like sometimes, you

[Shishir]: know, some of the actors that are
like great character type oriented actors,

[Shishir]: they'll maybe not get as many roles,
or they won't break out for whatever reason.

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: But I think he came from a pretty
solid acting family.

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: His brother was a really big deal
for a while. But yeah, so I always like Joaquin

[Shishir]: Phoenix, the stuff that he does.
He puts on another level in terms of acting.

[Shishir]: He actually very much reminds me
of Daniel de Vues.

[raj]: He reminds, I don't, you know, he's kind
of like, kind of has that technician and kind

[raj]: of like can escape into a role like Daniel
Day-Lewis. But he's also

[Shishir]: Go.

[raj]: a little like Nicholas Cage where he
has that eccentric city, eccentric,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: you don't know what he's gonna do next

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: type of

[Shishir]: yes.

[raj]: character. And you mentioned

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: the dynamic between, you know, walking
Phoenix, and Nicholas Cage. I thought it was

[raj]: great because you have like a walking
Phoenix that I think he wants to be a private

[raj]: eye, right? Or like he

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: wants to do this stuff.

[Shishir]: yeah. He has an element of goodness
to him. Like he's not, like some people are

[Shishir]: kind of like, you know, they don't
care. Like they don't have like a, you know,

[Shishir]: they might like feel bad, but they
don't have like any kind of desire to do good,

[Shishir]: per se, like, you know, extra effort
to do kind of good, right? And that's what

[Shishir]: I think, I really like when I see
that kind of, you know, that. To me, it shows

[Shishir]: that, okay, this is somebody that
they're trying to do something. I think naturally,

[Shishir]: you care about that character too,
right? Which is, in a movie, like a two-hour

[Shishir]: format, sometimes it's hard to do.
You're invested in the character, the good

[Shishir]: directors and writers pull it off,
but you have to be very

[Shishir]: good with the amount of room you're
given with that limited time and kind of quickly

[Shishir]: establish, the actor has to quickly
establish the characters meaning to like an

[Shishir]: audience that's watching, right?
So Nicholas Cage, I feel like is a master at

[Shishir]: this. I don't know how he's like
done it across like almost all these different

[Shishir]: movies. I've seen him in, I honestly
like I've seen him in Disney movies like National

[Shishir]: Treasure and I actually was like.
movie it's like fun and he carries that then

[Shishir]: I saw him in Lord of War and he carries
that too and I'm like how's he how does he

[Shishir]: do to all these different problems?
An 8 millimeter I remember the you know the

[Shishir]: first time one of the first scenes
was when he's watching that snuff film video

[Shishir]: and you see his reaction you actually
like the way he does it you I at least for

[Shishir]: me I felt the same way of watching
him do it I actually started feeling like I

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: wanted to puke and throw Not many
actors can do that. That's why I think he's

[Shishir]: just like people look up to him for
decades now because he's just just that versatile

[raj]: I'm glad you brought that up because...
I think that maybe people our age look at Nick

[raj]: Cage as a great actor, he's done a lot
of great films. And what he's doing now, it's

[raj]: still great acting. He's just, you know,

[raj]: off the beaten path movies, which is
his choice

[Shishir]: Yeah, so.

[raj]: to do. But I do hear like online and
some other podcasts that people think that

[raj]: Nik Nikos Cage legit is not a good actor.
And He did an interview, I think it was an

[raj]: NPR, and he talked about like, he's not
a natural actor, he's like a performance artist.

[raj]: And so,

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah, okay,

[raj]: He

[Shishir]: that

[raj]: doesn't

[Shishir]: changes.

[raj]: really try to go for naturalized, he
tries to go for something like more stylized.

[Shishir]: Okay, interesting.

[raj]: And like if you watch the movie Face
Off, like,

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: you know,

[Shishir]: yes.

[raj]: he is, he's insane in that movie.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes, yes.

[raj]: And I

[Shishir]: It's

[raj]: feel

[Shishir]: a good thing.

[raj]: like, like, he just, like if he was playing
the drums with the band, he's on a different

[raj]: beat, you know?

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[raj]: And I think

[Shishir]: exactly.

[raj]: he does it on purpose. And that's

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: why I kind

[Shishir]: yeah.

[raj]: of enjoy watching, you know, movies.

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: uh...

[Shishir]: yeah. Snake Eye is also another one,

[raj]: Sneak

[Shishir]: right?

[raj]: eyes is so underrated and

[Shishir]: It is.

[raj]: the opening, like where you see Nick
Cage talking to Gary Sinise's character, and

[raj]: then Gary Sinise has to leave for some
reason, and Nick's Cage

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: knows that he's talking to himself, and
all of a sudden he's like, I am the king and

[raj]: he stands up. It's just like, there's
not a lot of actors that do that, that kind

[raj]: of had that persona or that.

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: And then, I'm like, I'm like, I'm like,
I'm like,

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah. I know. It's unique in
my part. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[raj]: It

[Shishir]: Okay.

[raj]: is

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay.

[raj]: very

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay. Okay.

[raj]: unique.

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[raj]: There's

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay. Okay.

[raj]: no

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay.

[raj]: one

[Shishir]: Okay.

[raj]: that

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay.

[raj]: does,

[Shishir]: Okay. Okay.

[raj]: I think, what he does. And if really,

[Shishir]: He did it.

[raj]: maybe what key Phoenix? That's probably
the closest. It's probably

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: the

[Shishir]: yeah,

[raj]: closest.

[Shishir]: yeah. Well, if you think about that
movie alone, you have Nicholas Cage, who was

[Shishir]: already pretty well-established and
famous. You have Joaquin Phoenix, who was fairly

[Shishir]: new and just like kind of starting
out in a sense, like getting more exposure.

[Shishir]: I think it's a good thing that he's
not here. I think it's a good thing that he's

[Shishir]: not here. I think it's a good thing
that he's not here. I think it's a good thing

[Shishir]: that he's not

[raj]: It

[Shishir]: here.

[raj]: was

[Shishir]: I think

[raj]: before

[Shishir]: it's a good thing

[raj]: Gladiator.

[Shishir]: that he's not here.

[raj]: I think, you know, what's gladiator came
on. It

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: was like,

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: this

[Shishir]: yes.

[raj]: guy

[Shishir]: Black

[raj]: is

[Shishir]: Haters.

[raj]: stepped out of his brother's shadow.

[Shishir]: Yes, like he has Major Versilli and
actually James Gandolfini in that same movie

[Shishir]: too, in 8mm. I remember James Gandolfini's
character, right? And I was like, oh, this

[Shishir]: is like a, this is a good actor,
but like you don't really, you know, you, you,

[Shishir]: you don't remember him as much, I
think, until Sopranos. And then I was like,

[Shishir]: oh my God,

[raj]: Well?

[Shishir]: like this guy can act. It might,
you know.

[raj]: I do remember him from True Romance.

[Shishir]: Ah, okay, yes, yes, yes, yeah, that's
true. That was a good role, yeah. It

[raj]: And

[Shishir]: was

[raj]: so,

[Shishir]: a great role.

[raj]: and that was a movie that I watched like
over and over again. So I like I was actually

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: like, oh, that guy, but you're right.
Like and when I was watching his performance

[raj]: in this movie, eight millimeter, there
are some

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: like scenes in there are facial reactions.
And I was just like, that's Tony Soprano.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes, yes.

[raj]: And you

[Shishir]: Let's

[raj]: know what?

[Shishir]: let the go.

[raj]: I don't know if Tony Soprano is any pool.
I think that Tony Soprano had He was a killer.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: But he had it strangely enough for being
a killer. He had a higher moral compass than

[raj]: Eddie Poole. I don't think Tony Soprano
would ever go after little girls or little

[raj]: boys

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: or teenage

[Shishir]: yeah.

[raj]: girls

[Shishir]: Well,

[raj]: or teenage boys. So. So.

[Shishir]: if you think about it, yeah, I mean,
people would, would used to, at least, you

[Shishir]: know, I would hear a lot of complimentary
talk about Michael Corleone from the Godfather,

[Shishir]: right? And you see what he does in
the Godfather part two, he essentially kills

[Shishir]: a girl just to serve like, you know,
to hold a kind of a ransom or, you know, control

[Shishir]: a senator. But but you know and people

[raj]: Wait,

[Shishir]: you

[raj]: wait,

[Shishir]: know

[raj]: Eddie kills his brother.

[Shishir]: And that too yeah, yeah, I mean like
yeah exactly like he's he's he's like compared

[Shishir]: to compared to You know Vita Corleone
in that sense like I thought

[raj]: Fransford Coppola said that he did that
on, well, I mean, I guess that was part of

[raj]: the story,

[Shishir]: Cool.

[raj]: but he wanted a darker edge

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: because he was like upset on how much
people romanticized Godfather One.

[Shishir]: That makes sense. Okay, that's good.
I'm glad that he did that then because I I

[Shishir]: hated Michael like you know in general
I mean like meaning like I like I love the

[Shishir]: movie

[raj]: But I

[Shishir]: but

[raj]: hear

[Shishir]: that

[raj]: what

[Shishir]: character

[raj]: you mean though, the character, yeah.

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Shishir]: yeah, but Tony Tony actually Tony
Sopranos character Initially started out as

[Shishir]: like a like a bull like funny like
kind of root for him But then this is what

[Shishir]: I liked about David Chase is that
over this years? He got really tired of the

[Shishir]: people like just loving Tony Sopranos
and losing sight of the fact that he's a criminal.

[Shishir]: And so he started making him more
and more unlikable towards the end of the series.

[Shishir]: And he started doing some pretty
dark stuff at the end of the last season. But

[Shishir]: James Guilfini just took that, like,
you know, just very gifted actor from the film.

[raj]: very

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: special actor, died too early. And you
know, if you look at his filmography, he was

[raj]: a working actor. He did a lot of movies

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: and obviously he was a sopranos. One
of the greatest TV shows ever.

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: Kind of like the show that people kind
of like start point to start to that.

[Shishir]: So.

[raj]: And the wire is kind of like prestige

[Shishir]: Oh, a kind of funny factoid on the
wire season two was one of the main characters

[Shishir]: was machine from eight millimeter.
That was a great character too by the way Frank

[Shishir]: Sabatka. I love that character. Yeah.

[raj]: Oh my gosh! Oh my gosh.

[Shishir]: Yes. That was machine and eight millimeter.
And I just remember when I first see him unmasked

[Shishir]: at eight millimeter and I'm like,
oh my God. normal looking guy but he's a really

[Shishir]: good actor

[raj]: He's

[Shishir]: right?

[raj]: a great actor and you

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: know,

[Shishir]: he is.

[raj]: I think the director or the cast, that
was done on purpose. Like, find

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: me. the guy that you at least suspect.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: But. But. After about 45 seconds of seeing
it, you can see, okay, okay, I can see it.

[Shishir]: Yep. Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Yep.

[raj]: And you know,

[Shishir]: Yep.

[raj]: you know, going back to them, you know,
actually I want to get back to that part of

[raj]: the movie and then we can get back to
James Gantafini because I also want to talk

[raj]: about him, but before I forget, you know.
I'm sorry, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry.

[raj]: I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm
sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. I'm

[raj]: sorry. When he has, in a very tense scene,
when he goes to the film set where Tom Wells

[raj]: and Cajun's character to meet the director,
who's another great villain in this movie,

[Shishir]: Yes, Peter Storbaird, right?

[raj]: yeah,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: and then James Caden DeFini's character,
and the machine, that's a very tense scene,

[raj]: because he gets

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: set up right from the get-go.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: And then Longdale, who's like the assistant
or, you know, lawyer to the Christian family,

[raj]: who

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: the widow, the wife hired Tom Wells.
So you

[Shishir]: Thank

[raj]: find

[Shishir]: you.

[raj]: out, okay, these are the villains, right?

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: there's a scene when they want Tom Wells
to go get that tape filmed so they can burn

[raj]: it. The

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: only film existed. And Longdale gets
the gun and takes him out there. And he goes,

[raj]: why would Mr. Krish to do this?

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah.

[raj]: And then we find out that it was even
sicker than really it was. It wasn't that she,

[raj]: they couldn't find, they found this smut
film. They couldn't find a smut film. So they

[raj]: decided to make a smut film

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: and they decided, you know, instead of
to act it, they really did kill the girl. She's

[raj]: toy.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: But when he asked why and he goes because
he could.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes.

[raj]: And then when he. the machine

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: and he I think I don't know if he asked
why but the machine goes I wasn't it I was

[raj]: grown up well good family nothing wrong

[Shishir]: Yep.

[raj]: does

[Shishir]: Yep.

[raj]: he does he say anything else the reason
why are you just or because I it's like it

[raj]: was the same reason it's guys like

[Shishir]: Vamos ser, vamos ser.

[raj]: he could and that's frightening

[Shishir]: It's very frightening, I know, right?
I mean, like, that's what I loved about the

[Shishir]: movie. It wasn't like these people
that do evil things had like a, you know, just

[Shishir]: assumed awful like upbringing or
anything like that, right? And then you start,

[Shishir]: like, that's what I think. I loved
like a lot of movies around the 90s because

[Shishir]: they make you think about things.
You just like, you start like wondering, okay,

[Shishir]: if this is how like maybe like one,
two percent of society turns to like doing

[Shishir]: really awful evil things. Like how
do you, what can be done to further minimize

[Shishir]: that and you know, have that not
happen or at least protect people from getting,

[Shishir]: because Sengoku's coming to such
things. But yeah, I remember the machine's

[Shishir]: character, he said something when
he said it, because I was used to like evil

[Shishir]: people, like evil characters having
like, you know, something bad happen to them.

[Shishir]: But this was like where Joel Schumacher
like the way he showed this Shed shed you know

[Shishir]: some kind of a light on these kind
of people. I was like, oh my god I was like,

[Shishir]: I didn't I didn't expect that it
was like a it was a twist in some sense Very

[Shishir]: different from from what you you
normally don't see but it just it works so

[Shishir]: well Like it wasn't surprising for
say it was surprising but not like oh my gosh

[Shishir]: like I can't believe that it was
like Oh wow I can believe that, you know?

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: And so, yeah, I remember that. And
then to me, the, when at the beginning of the

[Shishir]: movie, when they're, when they have
the, the, you know, the Christian family, Mrs.

[Shishir]: Christian, wanting to investigate
and find out like what happened to this girl

[Shishir]: and all this other stuff. I literally
didn't think that the rich, like, you know,

[Shishir]: Mr. Christian was the person that
commissioned it. I was shocked at that. And

[Shishir]: I was like, then you just start,
I think it's like you start kind of, your brain

[Shishir]: starts opening up to things and you're
like, wow, these kind of, there are messed

[Shishir]: up individuals that do this because
they can or they're bored. And this is what

[Shishir]: they turn to. So it was such a, just
a, IQ or whatever the term is where you just

[Shishir]: start thinking about about things
in general I Love that about this movie.

[raj]: Yeah.

[Shishir]: It was It's it's like you like it
was a it's like when I think they call it like

[Shishir]: what water cooler movies or water
cooler like type of topics where you just like

[Shishir]: think about it And then you like
can just randomly talk to someone and you just

[Shishir]: like have like hour-long conversations
It's like stuff that you know before You know

[Shishir]: before for podcasts like you meet
with like different friends and have to talk

[Shishir]: with them about it.

[raj]: Yeah, or you go watch a movie and then
you'd have dinner.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: Or if you had, you know, or after the
movie, you would hang out and talk about the

[raj]: movie.

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: And yeah.

[Shishir]: yeah, I,

[raj]: Yeah. Yeah.

[Shishir]: exactly. I tried to do so much research
on this topic when I was in college because,

[Shishir]: but, but Google wasn't really good
at the time. I don't think it even really existed

[Shishir]: to the extent it does now. It was,
I think it was Alta Vista was like the search

[Shishir]: engine.

[raj]: Yes.

[Shishir]: Remember that?

[raj]: I do remember

[Shishir]: It

[raj]: that.

[Shishir]: was, yeah, it was, it was not a very
good search engine.

[raj]: D'oh.

[Shishir]: And so, I mean, it was all dependent
on how much public access was to, to like these,

[Shishir]: these kinds of crimes and how people,
like, whether solved it or what happened. So

[Shishir]: I was really... You could tell that
this specific production, they put a lot of

[Shishir]: thought into real events, or like,
you know, stuff that's happened in actual reality

[Shishir]: and how to make a good story out
of it.

[raj]: Yeah, definitely, definitely. So yeah,
I wanted to talk about, you know, actually,

[raj]: you know, going back to James Gandolfini

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: we

[raj]: get back to the movie, I just want to
wrap up, but, you know, I was looking at his

[raj]: filmography and even during his long
run with the Sopranos, he would make movies

[raj]: and

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: mostly supporting roles. But what I

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: love about it is like, even if it was
a role where he'd show up on screen for like

[raj]: five minutes, he would hit it out of
the park or he would just make you smile when

[raj]: you would see him. And I think there's

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: something to be said about

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: being on a TV show or maybe on a movie,
like a franchise where everybody's seen it.

[raj]: Or

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: if you haven't seen it, they know of
it. And so what happens is when they see the

[raj]: movie, it's like, oh, that's Tony Soprano.

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: You know?

[Shishir]: yeah. You know, that reminds me,
around the time of Eight Millimeter, there

[Shishir]: was another movie that came out pretty
close to it called The Mexican. It had Julia

[Shishir]: Roberts and Brad Pitt

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: as like the top stars, James Gagniflin,
he was in that too. And this is like one thing

[Shishir]: that I'll say that maybe a lot of
people wouldn't agree with, but I don't really

[Shishir]: consider Brad Pitt I think he's really
well coached and he is like a very like he

[Shishir]: has a Very very like narrow range
that like he's been like just coached and coached

[Shishir]: and coached to do well but like his
Branding and stuff has taken him to a high

[Shishir]: high level. So like, you know as
far as like You know the box office numbers

[Shishir]: and all that stuff goes like he you
know pretty much performs, but I Don't consider

[Shishir]: him like I don't think he's like
Naturally like a good actor, right? Like you

[Shishir]: just don't think he has that talent
so but to the reason I'm mentioning that is

[Shishir]: because in the movie the Mexican
It's actually kind of an interesting story,

[Shishir]: but it's not it did I think it flopped
I don't think did that well, but James Gandolfini's

[Shishir]: character in that movie was Amazing
like I watched it and I that's the one character.

[Shishir]: I remember really well to this day
for the movie and that came out I think in

[Shishir]: early but he was just awesome. And
I was like, actually remember, I was like,

[Shishir]: okay, he's been an eight millimeter,
just 99. Now he did this. It was, you know,

[Shishir]: relatively small role compared to
the main people. But I was like, Oh, you know,

[Shishir]: I hope he gets like, you know, more
stuff, I just never expected it to be the sopranos.

[raj]: You know what?

[Shishir]: And then I was like,

[raj]: I'm gonna have to watch it. Actually,
so it came out a little bit after The Sopranos.

[raj]: It came out in 2001. And

[Shishir]: Okay.

[raj]: I'm not gonna have to watch this movie.
The story was that Julia Roberts loved The

[raj]: Sopranos and she

[Shishir]: Ah, okay.

[raj]: loved James Candifini as the actor. And

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: so, and I think she was probably the
producer, probably one of the producers of

[raj]: the film. She

[Shishir]: down.

[raj]: was the one that said, hey, we need to
cast this guy.

[Shishir]: Yeah, no.

[raj]: But yeah, you see him. I mean, there's
some movies, there's a great movie called In

[raj]: the Loop. I don't know if you've seen,
it's made by the same guys that made the great

[raj]: TV show, Veep. It's kind of like a political,

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: In the

[raj]: Loop came out in 2009. It's about the
George W. Bush WMD era.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: And I think he plays the mayor taking
a film, one, two, three.

[Shishir]: Ah, okay,

[raj]: And

[Shishir]: okay.

[raj]: it's actually a great role. He kind of
plays the half-clueless mayor, but he also

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: plays the mayor that kind of gives it,
that figures stuff out.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: And that's the game to feed he's good
at. Like, you know, he's like, he kind of play

[raj]: that politician that's a

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: little bit dirty, but it's got more good
morals too.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: And he can play. A hit man.

[Shishir]: Yes. Yes.

[raj]: That's got a personality.

[Shishir]: Yep. Yep.

[raj]: And, uh, and you can play a total sicko.

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: Like in this movie, 8mm.

[Shishir]: his versatility was phenomenal. That's
why I think this movie, Eight Millimeter is

[Shishir]: kind of a great example where you
have more than one person. It's not even like

[Shishir]: two, let's say the top, like you
had two top stars, like two top building, way

[Shishir]: beyond that actually, multiple characters,
even the lawyer who was like kind of a scumbag

[Shishir]: character. I remember and I was like,
man, They all hit it out of the park. They

[Shishir]: were all really good character actors
and just did a great job. Afterwards, their

[Shishir]: body of work

[raj]: They

[Shishir]: was phenomenal.

[raj]: all, they've all had like great careers.

[Shishir]: Exactly. Yeah. The main, I think
the most villainous one, or the machine is

[Shishir]: probably one of the more villainous
ones, but the other guy

[raj]: Brains

[Shishir]: who was like

[raj]: though,

[Shishir]: those two.

[raj]: the guy at the point Dino.

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: Yeah.

[Shishir]: Yeah. Yeah. He, yes, Peter Stormair.
That's that, that actor is another phenomenal

[Shishir]: character actor. He played the devil
in Constantine, that Keon Reeves movie. And

[Shishir]: I remember when, you know, because
in the I'm wondering who's gonna play it and

[Shishir]: I actually thought this would be
you when he came and appeared as Like this

[Shishir]: is he's a phenomenal actor because
he can play a variety different roles as you

[Shishir]: know, so so

[raj]: Yeah, he's also,

[Shishir]: it was just

[raj]: he's also, I just saw this movie recently,
Minority Report, but he's in that movie

[Shishir]: Yep.

[raj]: too.

[Shishir]: I remember that. Yeah, he played
the convicted felon that

[raj]: He,

[Shishir]: does the black market

[raj]: yeah, the underground,

[Shishir]: stuff.

[raj]: he sells eyeballs

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: and performs

[Shishir]: Yep. Yep.

[raj]: surgery.

[Shishir]: This used to be a former doctor.
Yep. That was another character I remember

[Shishir]: from Minority Report. And I was like,
wow, like, who is this guy? Right. And I was

[Shishir]: like, oh, I remember seeing him in
eight millimeter. He was the bad guy at eight

[Shishir]: millimeter. And the the so so I felt
like they had a in that that film, they just

[Shishir]: had such a great cast. The writer

[Shishir]: He did seven he wrote seven and he
did another movie and Seven I thought was like

[Shishir]: it was a dark film But but pretty
well it was I mean as well well received that

[Shishir]: a lot of I think a lot of recognition
a lot of awards And you know, but it was more

[Shishir]: was very fictional right so like
You know, I Kind of I liked it But I I don't

[Shishir]: know at the same time I thought the
ending was a little too... Like I know what

[Shishir]: they were trying to go for. They
were trying to have something that wasn't like

[Shishir]: a typical, what they call Hollywood
ending. But,

[raj]: Well, but

[Shishir]: you know, it wasn't...

[raj]: you know, I actually love Seven, but
it's like this kind of like the same darkness,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: you know, a little bit similar universe.

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: I was just looking up the writer. I mean,
he's, he also directed Sleepy Hollow, which

[raj]: Tim Burton did, which I like.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: And there's

[Shishir]: Sure.

[raj]: a new movie called The Killer, directed
by David

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: Fincher that's coming out later this
year. So,

[Shishir]: So.

[raj]: and then, you know, looks like

[raj]: He's also a script doctor for a lot of
Dave and Fincher movies too. So yeah.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: So this

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: guy

[Shishir]: Very,

[raj]: does dark movies.

[Shishir]: exactly. Yeah. He, he, he, he, he,
he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,

[Shishir]: he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
he, he, he, he,

[raj]: I agree, yep.

[Shishir]: he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,

[Shishir]: he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,

[Shishir]: he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,

[Shishir]: he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he,
he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he, he I feel came

[Shishir]: out this like in this modern age
like well actually that was modern too but

[Shishir]: I'd say like you know 2020s I think
it would be like a runaway hit. I mean Just

[Shishir]: just seeing how much how well received
a lot of the overly dark stuff that um,

[raj]: I totally

[Shishir]: you know

[raj]: agree.

[Shishir]: gets

[raj]: Yeah, I mean, I think this movie would
do very well if it was like a Netflix original

[raj]: or even an HBO original.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: Yeah, and I don't know if that's a good
thing or a bad thing that people like. I mean,

[Shishir]: Welcome.

[raj]: I'm one of them, but yeah. I mean, I

[Shishir]: I

[raj]: feel

[Shishir]: would,

[raj]: like,

[Shishir]: I see,

[raj]: yeah, go ahead, I'm sorry. Okay. Okay.
Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay. Okay.

[Shishir]: yeah. No, no, it's okay. I was gonna
say, I feel like if it was done nowadays, what

[Shishir]: I would probably dislike is that
it'd be too graphic.

[raj]: Yes.

[Shishir]: I think the way they did it in the
90s was perfect in terms of getting that subject

[Shishir]: matter across, but also in really
enjoyable film. Like you're like, I don't know,

[Shishir]: I was gripping my seat, like wanting
to see what happens. Like it's like you have

[Shishir]: like this phenomenal mystery But
you also feel like, okay, how does a victim

[Shishir]: get justice?

[raj]: Yep. So you had this like murder mystery,

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: which

[Shishir]: you never meet the victim, right?
And I've seen other movies where they've tried

[Shishir]: to do the same thing, not the same
subject, but where they have a victim that's

[Shishir]: already something bad has happened
to them. And then there's like a mystery about

[Shishir]: it. But you never really like, at
least for me, there's not many movies that

[Shishir]: I feel do a good job where you care
about like the victim as much. Like you just

[Shishir]: kind of, you see that something has
happened where like let's say they're murdered

[Shishir]: or something offscreen. And then
the movie starts and then like there's an investigation

[Shishir]: or whatnot. But

[raj]: Well,

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: we

[Shishir]: Bye.

[raj]: do do it. I mean, you know, so Tom, Nicholas
Cage's character does travel to go visit the

[raj]: mom.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes, yep.

[raj]: And, you know, that wasn't just a useless
kind of, no, I should say useless, a scene

[raj]: to try to like, you know, make the audience
get, know a little bit more about the daughter

[raj]: feel for, but it also moved the plot
because that's where he found the diary. And

[raj]: so, that's where he found the diary.
And so, that's

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: where he found the diary. And so, that's
where he found the diary. And so, that's where

[raj]: he found

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: the diary. And so, that's where he found
the diary.

[Shishir]: Yes, yes, it actually contributes
to the investigation, like collection of data,

[Shishir]: and then like kind of putting, you
know, clues and stuff, putting it together,

[Shishir]: like how, you know, we're retracing
the steps of where she went,

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: where the girl went and stuff.

[raj]: And then

[Shishir]: I actually, yeah, you know.

[raj]: the one thing I didn't notice when I
first watched the movie, because when I first

[raj]: watched the movie, it was the darkness
I was so consumed, that anything in the movie

[raj]: that was a little flawed or didn't make
sense, it didn't matter to me because I was

[raj]: so engrossed

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: on the who done it aspect and who's this
criminal world that I've never seen before.

[raj]: I'm fascinated by it, but also

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: disgusted by it at the same time.

[Shishir]: Yeah, right.

[raj]: But Tom Wells' wife, like, and I

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: know why they did it, and it makes sense
towards the end. So he has these pirotic phone

[raj]: calls with his wife Amy, played by Catherine
Keener, who

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: I love. She's a great actress,

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: but it was

[Shishir]: Great

[raj]: like

[Shishir]: actor.

[raj]: a throwaway role though.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: And you know, she's like, when are you
coming home? Or is I'm coming home? But something

[raj]: that Max California told Tom Wells, he
was like, be careful. Once you get in, I've

[raj]: seen people

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: get sucked in. and they never

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: come out.

[Shishir]: Yep, yep.

[raj]: And you kind of see that with the phone
calls in the beginning, Tom's updating her

[raj]: on what happened that day. And I love
you. Be home soon. To where he's not now not

[raj]: paying attention on the phone call, to

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: to a point where he's not even answering
the phone anymore.

[Shishir]: Yep, yep,

[raj]: He's all

[Shishir]: that's right.

[raj]: in on this investigation. And I don't
know if we really have a good time frame. It

[raj]: doesn't really show. But like, he's like
all in. Like he's just,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: it's, this case is going a little bit
longer than he thought it was.

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: And

[Shishir]: yeah.

[raj]: he spent all his time watching these
type of movies. And... And... And... And...

[raj]: And... And... And...

[Shishir]: I

[raj]: And...

[Shishir]: know,

[raj]: And...

[Shishir]: yeah,

[raj]: And... And... And...

[Shishir]: yeah.

[raj]: And... And... And... And... And... And...

[Shishir]: I mean, it's, you know, you can see
how, yeah, you're right. It shows the effect

[Shishir]: that it's having on

[raj]: So

[Shishir]: this.

[raj]: I get why they did that. I did think
there was a little, kind of a throwaway flaw,

[raj]: but I think he kind of had to do that.
He had to have a family. You can't have him

[raj]: be a single, uh,

[Shishir]: Yeah. It's inconvenient, right?

[raj]: yeah.

[Shishir]: If he doesn't have like other responsibilities
in his own personal life, it's just like, then

[Shishir]: if he doesn't, it's almost like he
becomes his fictional superhero type person

[Shishir]: with like, where he can spend all
of his time and has no consequences on anything

[Shishir]: that it affects in his own personal

[raj]: You

[Shishir]: life.

[raj]: know what you brought up like private
eyes and it kind of made me think

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: I'm a huge fan of Raymond Chandler and
I've been reading some of his books and

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: Phillip Marlowe. He's like a single dude
and I love

[Shishir]: Yes.

[raj]: that character is a great character,
but it's

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: like.

[raj]: He's got no one to care for.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: But in a way that allows him to take
the toughest cases, that

[Shishir]: great

[raj]: where he can get himself killed for somebody
that he doesn't even know. So,

[Shishir]: Exactly. Yeah.

[raj]: and in this movie, he's almost doing
the same thing, but he's got

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: a wife and a kid.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: And you're kind of like, wow, he's really
pushing it. And just

[Shishir]: Thank

[raj]: when

[Shishir]: you. Thank you.

[raj]: he gets home safe, or he tells his wife
to go to a safe place, And then when he meets

[Shishir]: to.

[raj]: him there, just when you, because he
turns, he, they handcuffed them, you know,

[raj]: when they ambush him at the shoot.

[Shishir]: Yeah. Yeah.

[raj]: And he was so smart to mention about
the payoff. So he gets the two,

[Shishir]: Thank you. Thank you.

[raj]: the villains to turn on each other. Just
two of them killed him, kill each other.

[Shishir]: Yes,

[raj]: And then

[Shishir]: yes.

[raj]: he escapes in a very like intense, intense
moment, well-directed. And

[Shishir]: Yep. Yep. Thank you.

[raj]: the movie could have ended.

[Shishir]: Yep. Yep.

[raj]: But he changes his mind the next day
and all of a sudden it becomes a revenge movie.

[Shishir]: Yep, exactly. How do you get justice?

[raj]: And then he all of a sudden is the torturer
and murderer.

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah, yeah,

[raj]: And

[Shishir]: you're

[raj]: I

[Shishir]: right.

[raj]: felt the movie does it in a dark way.
I don't know if the audience is asking for

[raj]: it. Or I mean, it's like, I feel like
I'm conflicted. Like. I don't know. I don't

[raj]: know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't
know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[raj]: I don't know. I don't know. I don't

[Shishir]: So.

[raj]: know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't
know. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

[raj]: I don't know. He's getting into that
darkness, you know?

[Shishir]: Yeah, I think the way they presented
it was that it would be very hard to get these

[Shishir]: people in jail for what they deserve,
life sentences or something of that sort, and

[Shishir]: they'd probably just get off within
a very short period of time.

[raj]: It's this criminal underworld, you know,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: another dead body.

[Shishir]: How do you prove that, you know,
that they're getting all

[raj]: Let's

[Shishir]: that?

[raj]: tie this to a murder that happened many,
I mean, it's horrific that I'm,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: you know, but in the movie, it's like,
it's real life though, if a murder happened

[raj]: many, many, many years ago to somebody

[Shishir]: Thank you.

[raj]: that's not important, you know, like
a non-celebrity or a non-politician, it's like.

[raj]: It's like, We're not

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: gonna deal with it. You know,

[Shishir]: Exactly.

[raj]: it's,

[Shishir]: It's

[raj]: and

[Shishir]: a... Yeah. Yeah.

[raj]: he

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: knows

[Shishir]: Yeah. Yeah.

[raj]: that. Tom Wells knows that. And I think
when he visited the mom, read the diary, saw

[raj]: that fit. I mean, he... I mean, he...
I mean, he... I mean, he... I mean, he... I

[raj]: mean, he... I mean, he... I mean, he...
I mean, he... I mean, he... I mean, he... I

[raj]: mean, he... I mean, he... I mean, he...
I mean, he... I mean, he... I mean, he... I

[raj]: mean, he... I mean, he... I mean, he...
I mean, he...

[raj]: Ed has a kid on the way, or has a kid,

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: I mean, already, a little baby. He's
just like, he had to get justice.

[Shishir]: Exactly. Yeah. Like how do you do
something to like reduce the dark like dark

[Shishir]: elements that are in the world, right?
Because it's it's

[raj]: I also think he was

[Shishir]: these

[raj]: pissed, you know?

[Shishir]: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

[raj]: And, uh...

[Shishir]: I mean like he was basically he almost
like lost his life, right?

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: Yeah,

[raj]: For someone that he doesn't know.

[Shishir]: yeah,

[raj]: Yeah.

[Shishir]: they're like, you know, it's it's
That those guys like they don't operate by

[Shishir]: the same rules, you know Like they
don't they don't they're not a lot abiding

[Shishir]: citizens. And like, you know, you
try to, you try to follow the rules in that

[Shishir]: situation, but they're very, very
intelligent. Like, where's the evidence to

[Shishir]: really like, you know, they've admitted
that they're guilty, but there's nothing on

[Shishir]: like tape. There's no hard evidence
that can really keep them in jail.

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: It was, yeah, it's a situation where
I, you know, you know, you kind of root for

[Shishir]: you root for him, even though he,
he basically tortures and kills the bad guys,

[Shishir]: it's kind of like he loses a part
of himself too

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: in a sense, right? But it's not such
a terrible cost because a pretty awful thing

[Shishir]: happened to an innocent girl in that
universe. So that's kind of the least, that's

[Shishir]: the most that you could get for justice
in a sense. I feel like in real life, they

[Shishir]: went to jail. parole for like good
behavior in like a year or two or something.

[Shishir]: Like it's just at the time like there
was you know not much resources in this, not

[Shishir]: much information about these kind
of underground crime type of things that were

[Shishir]: happening.

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: Yep. Alright, we're kind of reaching
the hour mark. Is there anything else you had

[raj]: like you wanted to bring up on this movie?

[Shishir]: Um, not really. I mean, I think we
covered all the, yeah, all the different aspects

[Shishir]: I loved about it. I mean, uh, the,
the, you really get the feeling, um, it's just

[Shishir]: so visceral across the entire, the
entire time. Like,

[raj]: Yep.

[Shishir]: I don't think there was ever a dull
moment. It wasn't like, um, but, but I love

[Shishir]: the, you know, I love the aspect
of the, the detective work and then, um, kind

[Shishir]: of like the You see the

[Shishir]: kind of the battle that he had, conscious
battle that you have, you know, trying to be

[Shishir]: a good person, but not like also
like murdered either, right? So like you see

[Shishir]: that constant kind of battle going
on and you know, just masterfully done. I honestly

[Shishir]: think this movie should, I'm not
that I believe in rating systems, but I feel

[Shishir]: like it's a disservice on IMDB because
I think that's, you know, a lot of people use

[Shishir]: that in the CEO. Should I watch something
or not? And it's, yeah, it's something that

[Shishir]: I'm like, okay, this should get like
much higher rating.

[raj]: No, no, I totally

[Shishir]: But

[raj]: agree. And it was, you know, it's, I
saw just about every movie in the 90s and I

[raj]: still remember this movie. And so I'm

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: you brought it up. So, so, all right.

[Shishir]: Yeah.

[raj]: think this is a good time to end it.
If you

[Shishir]: Nice.

[raj]: don't mind staying along to finish the
upload. So, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

[raj]: so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,
so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

[raj]: so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,
so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

[raj]: so, so, so, so, so, so, so, so,

[Shishir]: Sure, sure.

8mm (1999)
Broadcast by