Talking Cinema

raj:
All right, we're back. Ben, you got another

Ben:
Yeah,

raj:
scene?

Ben:
actually, they've seen where they're doing their gunnery practice. Gunnery practice was really important. It was one of the things that really made a difference. It was a rate of fire. That was true when you had people on the land with muskets and cannon, where they were not very accurate, so just basically putting as many bullets in the air as possible was the key to victory and the same thing goes for the water. In fact, Nelson, who was mentioned so many times, had the gun sights removed The British cannons they had no gun sights and the idea was Nelson said yeah, you're gonna be right up against them Aiming is just gonna slow down your loading and firing So they're practicing practice now. There are some anachronisms in that scene

raj:
Wait, wait, wait, I don't know if you want to get to it, but you should also, the movie juxtaposed them practicing with also the doctor getting kind of annoyed. Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
Yeah,

raj:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
the

raj:
ha ha

Ben:
doctor's

raj:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
trying

raj:
ha ha ha ha

Ben:
to

raj:
ha ha

Ben:
cut

raj:
ha ha ha

Ben:
up

raj:
ha ha ha

Ben:
his

raj:
ha ha

Ben:
fish.

raj:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
Yeah,

raj:
ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
I mean, but, you know, they would practice and that was something that was really important. The Americans did that very, very, very well. The British did it really well also and when the French really worked on it, they could do it pretty well too, but they were kind of inconsistent. Now, there's a couple of things in that scene. One, they're using a stopwatch. Pocket watches did exist in 1805. They would have had a clock on board the ship because he's a clock to measure longitude. If the clock keeps time where you left, the difference between where the sun is in the sky and what the clock says for where you left tells you how far west or east you are of where you started. So they use that to measure longitude. They would have had a clock, but stopwatch, pocket watch was a very rare thing back then, in hand. That would, I mean, could it be possible? Possible. Likely, maybe not. Also, at one point when he's rallying the troops up, he's like, you want to hear kids to learn them, RCA? No! Do you want to see a guillotine and Piccadilly? No! There is no Piccadilly Circus in 1805. That

raj:
That's

Ben:
is,

raj:
a

Ben:
it

raj:
goof!

Ben:
was somebody's private garden back then. I mean, you know,

raj:
Ha

Ben:
so

raj:
ha ha

Ben:
Piccadilly Circus didn't become a public area until 1819. So there would have been, you know, he was like, if he said Piccadilly, they would have been like, what's that? So, what?

raj:
Hey, wait, I thought this voice took it in 1905.

Ben:
1805.

raj:
Oh, 1805,

Ben:
Yeah, 1905

raj:
got

Ben:
they would have

raj:
it.

Ben:
had airpoints.

raj:
Yep, got it.

Ben:
But, you know, so there wasn't an anachronism there. Otherwise, historical accuracy is amazing. They do an amazing job, but, you know, I was actually surprised I caught anything, frankly. So there

raj:
Yeah,

Ben:
isn't an anachronism.

raj:
I'm surprised too. And I'm just, and I don't even know that much about it. And just everything looked pretty accurate.

Ben:
But I mean, I gotta tell you, the biggest failing of this movie is that there is no romantic interest.

raj:
Really?

Ben:
I think that's

raj:
I

Ben:
why

raj:
think that would

Ben:
it did

raj:
take

Ben:
not

raj:
a w...

Ben:
do well in the box office.

raj:
Okay, I'm gonna agree with you on that last point there. But I don't think you would have, it would have been as a powerful friendship movie if you had the romantic entrance. And I think you can't have both. And if you didn't wanna have both, it would need to be a mini

Ben:
Well,

raj:
series.

Ben:
I mean, they were planning on, they were confident it was going to be a series. But

raj:
And maybe if it got done today, it would be pitched as

Ben:
Yeah,

raj:
a series.

Ben:
and the thing is, in the books, there are romantic interests. Hammond doesn't commit suicide in the books. I was, I actually didn't read the books. I looked it up on internet movie database, but apparently he actually is

raj:
This

Ben:
murdered.

raj:
is the captain that was this was this was oh but this was the person where the He was already hearing rumblings about

Ben:
Yeah.

raj:
the crew and they did a really good job like with his faceness reaction he just he couldn't fit

Ben:
Well, yeah,

raj:
in

Ben:
and actually that's one of the things, you know, when the friendship, one of the great arguments where Patrick O'Brien speaks through the doctor was when they have the insubordination. Hammond is, you know, you know, somebody, one of the crew members deliberately disrespects Hammond and there's a call for flogging. And that's one thing it's like, you know, and they have, first off, Hammond basically says, you know, the captain says to Hammond, don't try to be their friend. They will disrespect you in the end. And you saw that earlier. Remember when they were singing and Hammond starts singing with them?

raj:
Yeah.

Ben:
And the crew are very uncomfortable with it. The captain, you can see the look on the captain's face, like, oh, he should not be doing that. He doesn't say anything. But even the crew are just like, the officer is singing with us, and they're uncomfortable with it. But there's this idea that you do have this very stratified class system. And so when the doctor comes in is like, you know, you know, he was drunk. You know, don't flog him. Just tip the rum overboard. And the captain says, I'd rather have them three sheets to the wind on occasion than have a mutiny on my hands. Alcohol and the whip and in extreme cases, the noose were the implements of British power. It was what they used. And the doctor references, like, you know, a lot of those people You know, they didn't it wasn't just like, you know, join the Navy and you can sail the seven seas I mean, it wasn't like a recruitment drive like you have today you had things called push gangs and Push gangs is they would send some trusted sailors ashore or even on to another ship if they encountered another ship and they would literally grab the sailors they needed especially during war time the pay was not enough for people to spend long months at sea and and risked their death. So they would have these push gangs and they referenced the push gangs. And where these push gangs, this was one of the reasons why the U.S. went to war with Great Britain in 1812 is because they were pushing Americans into their British Navy. And you know, this was a big factor. I mean, you had the Royal African Company, you know, grabbing people out of Africa, but they also had the Royal Navy grabbing people out of Britain and out of America and this is how they got the manpower they needed and it was a big source of discontent. So you keep people in line by flogging, you keep people in line by keeping them drunk. Which seems very strange you know I mean you know for example the American Navy is dry. There has been no alcohol served on American naval ships since prohibition and still there's no alcohol served on American ships, American Navy ships. Patrick O'Brien is speaking as a 20th century man to Jack, and then Jack has to explain. We have this entire system, it's built on privilege, it's built on class, and we need the men to obey us. I don't want to flog this guy. This guy cut his own buddy loose when we needed to, without question. He's a loyal guy.

raj:
which was a great

Ben:
He's

raj:
scene in

Ben:
a

raj:
the

Ben:
loyal

raj:
movie.

Ben:
guy.

raj:
Yep.

Ben:
But you got to do it. there is no other option. And he really drives home that class distinction that the Navy, you know, and he does not question it. Jack Arbery does not

raj:
No.

Ben:
question the system he is fighting and putting his life on the line for. Whereas the doctor,

raj:
And the doctor

Ben:
yeah,

raj:
brings that

Ben:
well I

raj:
up.

Ben:
mean that's the

raj:
He

Ben:
thing

raj:
questions

Ben:
is the doctor

raj:
the system.

Ben:
is not just, you know, a combination of banks and Darwin, he's also Patrick O'Brien. He's the reason why we don't need a narrator, because

raj:
Yeah.

Ben:
he can say things that will force Jack Aubrey to explain himself to the 20th and 21st century. And it's a wonderful literary device,

raj:
Wow, that's well said.

Ben:
but I gotta

raj:
Yeah, no,

Ben:
go

raj:
it's

Ben:
back

raj:
a great

Ben:
to

raj:
literary

Ben:
the lack

raj:
device.

Ben:
of romance. The books have romance. The books have romance. Hammond is murdered because he impregnates another man's wife, and then the murderer aside.

raj:
Hey, wait, wait,

Ben:
The doctor has a role much.

raj:
wait. I'm

Ben:
Heck,

raj:
sorry to interrupt.

Ben:
in reality, even Nelson with one arm and one eye had this ongoing affair with Lady Hamilton. In reality, this happened. There were always reasons for women to be on a military ship. This was the age of piracy. If you had diplomats and their families, they would be transported on military ships because pirates were still out. 1805, that's the year this takes place. That's also the year that Jefferson, sends the Marines to Tripoli, well they never actually make it Tripoli, to basically deal with a bunch of pirates. There is reasons why women could be on shore. And actually, you know, take Joseph Banks, who the doctor, one of the people the doctor is based on. Joseph Banks had an affair with a Tahitian queen. The love interests

raj:
All right,

Ben:
need

raj:
all

Ben:
not

raj:
right.

Ben:
be white. The Essex, which is the ship that the actor on is based on. They took a break from taking British wailers and went to the Marquises Islands where basically they had one hell of a good time. Refitting the ship, but also chasing the local women.

raj:
And you know, I mean, I've seen this movie before, but I was just thinking like if I haven't seen this movie, I saw this movie for the first time. Like when they're getting food and you see some women on, you know, the villagers and you're just like, oh, yeah. Well, uh, well, or not our time.

Ben:
Which was completely normal!

raj:
But you know, I, uh... I don't know, I'm gonna disagree with you. I sometimes feel, you could do it. I mean, if... I don't know. Sometimes these romantic angles, the romantic little story arc, usually I feel like in a lot of these movies gets just shoveled in.

Ben:
Well,

raj:
And you can tell that it was like really odd. So if you do it right, I'm fine

Ben:
yeah, you'd

raj:
with

Ben:
have

raj:
it.

Ben:
to do it right, but the thing is, you're looking at it as a piece of art, which it is.

raj:
It is.

Ben:
But

raj:
I totally

Ben:
a movie

raj:
understand.

Ben:
is not just a piece of

raj:
I totally.

Ben:
art, it is a product. It is a product of an industry

raj:
After the fact.

Ben:
that needs to be, you have a product

raj:
Love it.

Ben:
and you

raj:
I

Ben:
need

raj:
love

Ben:
to have

raj:
it.

Ben:
a consumer.

raj:
hahahahahaha

Ben:
And, you know, an Ed Soul was

raj:
But the movie's been already made!

Ben:
a work of art,

raj:
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
but an Ed Soul wasn't a great consumer product.

raj:
I totally agree. I mean, it's hard to have both. And, but man, this movie

Ben:
The

raj:
came

Ben:
movie

raj:
close.

Ben:
came

raj:
Ha ha ha ha

Ben:
close,

raj:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
but...

raj:
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
Well,

raj:
ha ha ha ha ha

Ben:
and

raj:
ha ha ha

Ben:
also, I mean, it's the fact that it took, it had high overhead. You had to buy a ship.

raj:
Very...

Ben:
They had to take the ship from New England to the Galapagos. They actually sailed to the freaking Galapagos. Now it helps that there is now a Panama Canal and they didn't actually have to go around the horn. But, you know, this was an expensive movie. It had an enormous cast.

raj:
But you know what, I'm glad

Ben:
All I'm

raj:
they

Ben:
glad

raj:
made

Ben:
they made

raj:
it.

Ben:
it too, but I wish they could have made

raj:
And

Ben:
more of them.

raj:
they picked the perfect

Ben:
Yes.

raj:
director, Peter Ware, who apparently looks like he does his research.

Ben:
Excellently, yes.

raj:
Yeah. And you and I were texting favorite war movies and I'm not gonna butcher the name, but you mentioned another Peter

Ben:
What, Gallipoli?

raj:
Ware movie, an early movie,

Ben:
You've been

raj:
Globally

Ben:
to Gallipoli!

raj:
with the young Mel Gibson.

Ben:
You've been to Gallipoli!

raj:
What? I just can't pronounce it.

Ben:
Well, we did just drive through, but you could see the bunkers and stuff are still there.

raj:
But with the young Mel Gibson, which I'm going to have to revisit. I remember I saw that on TV with commercials. I don't know where and I was impressed. It was a good, I was like, oh, this is a good movie. So I'm going to have to watch it and watch it without commercials.

Ben:
It

raj:
And

Ben:
is a good movie.

raj:
yeah. Yeah. Well, hey, I mean, if the major top five, it's

Ben:
Well, I

raj:
pretty

Ben:
think I

raj:
good.

Ben:
changed my top five because you made an interesting point and I changed it.

raj:
Well, you know what? We're gonna, this pause is getting a little over, but you know what? You and I are gonna have to do maybe, would you prefer a top five or a top 10 more movie pod? Where we go through our

Ben:
I can do either

raj:
list.

Ben:
one.

raj:
Top five. We'll do top five. That way we can actually talk a little bit about the movie and I can talk about your list and you can talk about my list and,

Ben:
I haven't

raj:
that could be a good

Ben:
seen

raj:
pod. We'll do

Ben:
some

raj:
it.

Ben:
of the ones in your list, yeah.

raj:
And if you have it, no big deal. So, wait, you have any more?

Ben:
Any more what?

raj:
for this pod, for the

Ben:
No,

raj:
Master

Ben:
I

raj:
Commander.

Ben:
think I mean, other than saying how's the sailing ship like a wind turbine, which I thought, you know, that's a little too esoteric and a little too scientific, and I don't think we need to go into that. Yeah,

raj:
No, I don't think we need

Ben:
I

raj:
to

Ben:
think

raj:
go

Ben:
that

raj:
into

Ben:
the

raj:
that.

Ben:
prod

raj:
So I

Ben:
will

raj:
think

Ben:
be okay without

raj:
this

Ben:
it.

raj:
is a good time. Yeah, I think this is a good thing to end. If you could just stay on for a little bit.